Individual Details
Sir James Dunbar
(1399 - 10 Aug 1429)
}
== Biography ==
*James Dunbar of Frendraught, who, upon the death of his cousin Thomas without male issue, succeded to his earldom, was fifth Earl of Murray of the name of Dunbar, and was one of the hostages for King James' ransom anno 1425.
*He succeeded as Laid of Frendraught 28th January 1421-2, and his yearly rent of the estate of Frendraught was then estimated at 500 marks sterling.
*Third son of James, seventh Earl of Douglas, who, by the then prevailing interest of his family, obtained the Earldom of Murray, in prejudice of the said Sir Alexander Dunbar, the Earl's son, and the Lord Crichton, who was married to his eldest daughter. But it was not long enjoyed by this family, for it was forfeited for their rebellion, and annexed to the Crown anno 1455.
*Alexander, son of Earl James, ought to have succeeded his father both in the earldom and honors of Murray and in the barony of Frendraught, but was deprived of both. James, Earl of Douglas, whos power was already too great for a subject, having got his brothers Hugh and John raised to the peerage, wanted to increase his power by making his brother Archibald, Earl of Murray. To compass that end, he got the clergy to pronounce a nulity in Earl James's marriage with Isabel Innes, on the score of consanguinity, because she died before a dispensation was obtained to make their marriage canonical. The consanguinity was this: Earl James was son of Alexander of Frendraught and son of Earl John, and Isabel Innes was daughter of Eupheme Fraser, daughter of Jane Dunbar (Lady Lovat) daughter of Earl Thomas, son of Earl John; so they stood in the second and fourth descent from Earl John; and on this the nullity proceeded. The Earl of Douglas having thus, thou unjustly, got Alexander Dunbar declared incapable of succeding to his father, had another bar to remove; for the Lady Crichton, the eldest daughter, ought to have been prefered to the second, who was Archibald Douglas's wife; but he soon surmounted this difficulty, by prevailing with Crichton and his Lady to renounce and resign their right, in favour of his brother Archibald, and Crichton got the estate of Frendraught. In this maner did Archibald Douglas, become Earl of Murray, in 1449. But he did not long enjoy it, for having joined his brother in the rebellion of 1455, he was killed in Annandale by Lord Carlyle, of Torthorald, and the Laid of Johnston; and the Earldom of Murray was forfeited to the crown."
*Earl James was killed near Frendraught in 1442, before the 26th April, on which date he is called "the late Earl of Moray", and was succeded in his estates, but not in his titles, by his only son Sir Alexander Dunbar.
*James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray, b 1399 d. circa 10 August 1429
*James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray was the son of Thomas de Dunbar, 2nd Earl of Moray and Margaret (?)
*He married Janet Seton, daughter of Sir Alexander Seton of Gordon, before 1429 in a alleged marriage.He died circa 10 August 1429, possibly killed, without legitimate male issue.
*He succeeded to the title of 4th Earl of Moray in 1427.
Children of James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray and Janet Seton
*Lady Elizabeth Dunbar d. b 17 Feb 1485/86
*Lady Janet Dunbar d. fr 18 Mar 1493/94 - 1505/6
Child of James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray and Isobel of Innes
*Sir Alexander Dunbar of Westfield d. 10 Mar 1497/98
== Sources ==
*http://thepeerage.com/p2581.htm
*https://books.google.ca/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&pg=RA2-PA554&lpg=RA2-PA554&dq=James+Dunbar+1399&source=bl&ots=kvjHNROU43&sig=XCKYMDx6sOz2VwZCDuIwvtpLhgA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nZb6VK-1GIeeNquBhLAM&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=James%20Dunbar%201399&f=false
*http://www.linleyfh.com/oursecondsite-p/
=== Acknowledgments ===
*Records of the Heath Family", by George Heath 1907
*Thank you to [[Parker-10195 | Darrell Parker]] for [http://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:NetworkFeed&who=Dunbar-1163 creating] Dunbar-1163 on 30 Aug 13
* WikiTree profile Dunbar-669 created through the import of Hoffman Family Tree.ged on Sep 11, 2011 by [[Prior-169 | JJ Prior]].
-- MERGED NOTE ------------
According to http://www.dunbardna.org/dnadunbarlineage.htm (whose main sources are quoted as: The Scots Peerage (Moray), Burke's Peerage 1934 (Dunbar of Mochrum), Burke's Peerage 1934 (Dunbar of Northfield), and Burke's Peerage 1934 (Hope-Dunbar)) [James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray James Dunbar] the 4th Earl was the son of Alexander Dunbar, who married Matilda/Maud Fraser, and was therefore the cousin of Thomas the 3rd Earl.
However, according to peerage.com (http://www.thepeerage.com/p10808.htm#i108074 , whose sources are Charles Mosley, Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, 107th edition; and Alison Weir, Britain's Royal Family: A Complete Genealogy) James the 4th Earl and Thomas the 3rd Earl were brothers, the sons of Thomas the 2nd Earl.
The following websites have similar discussions:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2012-01/... - 4th Earl and 3rd Earl were brothers.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00370670&tre... (Ref: Scots Peerage VI:301 ) - 4th and 3rd Earl were cousins.
http://www.caledoniansocietyofneworleans.com/main_pgs/clans/c_hist/... - 4th and 3rd Earl were brothers (this also includes a section which, confusingly, uses different ordinals for the Earls where Thomas the 3rd is referred to as the 7th Earl, and James the 4th Earl is referred to as the 8th Earl !).
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=john%... (Ref: Complete Peerage IX:176-7) says that the 4th Earl was "brother and heir", but (Ref: The Scots Peerage VI:304-306) also states that "James, fourth Earl of Moray, who is always stated to be the son of Alexander Dunbar and Matilda Fraser".
How do we resolve this data conflict? Posted by [http://www.geni.com/people/Sheila-Anne-Tolbutt/6000000004534449215 Shelia Tolbutt] in [http://www.geni.com/discussions/121025?msg=858582 this discussion]. Logged on [http://www.geni.com/projects/Medieval-Scotland-Scratchpad-for-research-progress-work-in-progress/14119 Medieval Scotland Scratchpad project] for further perusal. [Sharon March 2013]
'''Conclusion: James the 4th Earl and Thomas the 3rd Earl were brothers (NOT cousins).'''
Please refer [http://www.geni.com/discussions/121025?msg=858582 here] for an excellent opinion on the relative merits of the various discussions above. All of them ultimately cite either Complete Peerage or Scots Peerage, both of which are 'competent compilations, but both are known to have many problems'. Alex Maxwell Findlater in [https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/james$20dunbar$204th$20moray/soc.genealogy.medieval/I-BqrlTIffg/oWxvyU8-aeoJ SGM] discusses the evidence and offers an explanation for the confusion, ie the occurrence of similar names in an earlier generation.
_________
4TH EARL OF MORAY; MURDERED
-- MERGED NOTE ------------
[[Category:Earls of Moray]]
}
=== Biography ===
}
}
:Got a charter for the lands of Frendraught, etc in 1422.[[#BalfourPaul|Balfour Paul]]: [https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun06paul/page/304 Vol 6, Page 305]
:Like his brother one of the hostages for the ransom of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_I_of_Scotland James I] in 1424. Released in 1427.[[#BalfourPaul|Balfour Paul]]: [https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun06paul/page/304 Vol 6, Page 305]
:Became Earl of Moray in 1427 on the death of his brother.
:Died 10th August 1430.[[#RGSS|Register of the Great Seal of Scotland]]: [https://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi02scot#page/38/mode/2up 1424-1513 Entry 179]
== Research Notes ==
:"... et in manibus regis nunc existunt recognite per vicecomitem per causam mortis Jac. comitis Moravie, qui obiit circa festum Beati Laurentii ult."[[#RGSS|Register of the Great Seal of Scotland]]: [https://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi02scot#page/38/mode/2up 1424-1513 Entry 179]::which I translate as something like "... and are now in the hands of the King's sheriff on account of the death of James, Earl of Moray, who died some time about the feast of St. Lawrence [10th August] last month". The document was dated 20th September 1430.
Children of James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray and Janet Seton
*Lady Elizabeth Dunbar d. b 17 Feb 1485/86
*Lady Janet Dunbar d. fr 18 Mar 1493/94 - 1505/6
Child of James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray and Isobel of Innes
*Sir Alexander Dunbar of Westfield d. 10 Mar 1497/98
== Sources ==
* http://thepeerage.com/p2581.htm#i25806
== Biography ==
*James Dunbar of Frendraught, who, upon the death of his cousin Thomas without male issue, succeded to his earldom, was fifth Earl of Murray of the name of Dunbar, and was one of the hostages for King James' ransom anno 1425.
*He succeeded as Laid of Frendraught 28th January 1421-2, and his yearly rent of the estate of Frendraught was then estimated at 500 marks sterling.
*Third son of James, seventh Earl of Douglas, who, by the then prevailing interest of his family, obtained the Earldom of Murray, in prejudice of the said Sir Alexander Dunbar, the Earl's son, and the Lord Crichton, who was married to his eldest daughter. But it was not long enjoyed by this family, for it was forfeited for their rebellion, and annexed to the Crown anno 1455.
*Alexander, son of Earl James, ought to have succeeded his father both in the earldom and honors of Murray and in the barony of Frendraught, but was deprived of both. James, Earl of Douglas, whos power was already too great for a subject, having got his brothers Hugh and John raised to the peerage, wanted to increase his power by making his brother Archibald, Earl of Murray. To compass that end, he got the clergy to pronounce a nulity in Earl James's marriage with Isabel Innes, on the score of consanguinity, because she died before a dispensation was obtained to make their marriage canonical. The consanguinity was this: Earl James was son of Alexander of Frendraught and son of Earl John, and Isabel Innes was daughter of Eupheme Fraser, daughter of Jane Dunbar (Lady Lovat) daughter of Earl Thomas, son of Earl John; so they stood in the second and fourth descent from Earl John; and on this the nullity proceeded. The Earl of Douglas having thus, thou unjustly, got Alexander Dunbar declared incapable of succeding to his father, had another bar to remove; for the Lady Crichton, the eldest daughter, ought to have been prefered to the second, who was Archibald Douglas's wife; but he soon surmounted this difficulty, by prevailing with Crichton and his Lady to renounce and resign their right, in favour of his brother Archibald, and Crichton got the estate of Frendraught. In this maner did Archibald Douglas, become Earl of Murray, in 1449. But he did not long enjoy it, for having joined his brother in the rebellion of 1455, he was killed in Annandale by Lord Carlyle, of Torthorald, and the Laid of Johnston; and the Earldom of Murray was forfeited to the crown."
*Earl James was killed near Frendraught in 1442, before the 26th April, on which date he is called "the late Earl of Moray", and was succeded in his estates, but not in his titles, by his only son Sir Alexander Dunbar.
*James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray, b 1399 d. circa 10 August 1429
*James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray was the son of Thomas de Dunbar, 2nd Earl of Moray and Margaret (?)
*He married Janet Seton, daughter of Sir Alexander Seton of Gordon, before 1429 in a alleged marriage.He died circa 10 August 1429, possibly killed, without legitimate male issue.
*He succeeded to the title of 4th Earl of Moray in 1427.
Children of James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray and Janet Seton
*Lady Elizabeth Dunbar d. b 17 Feb 1485/86
*Lady Janet Dunbar d. fr 18 Mar 1493/94 - 1505/6
Child of James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray and Isobel of Innes
*Sir Alexander Dunbar of Westfield d. 10 Mar 1497/98
== Sources ==
*http://thepeerage.com/p2581.htm
*https://books.google.ca/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&pg=RA2-PA554&lpg=RA2-PA554&dq=James+Dunbar+1399&source=bl&ots=kvjHNROU43&sig=XCKYMDx6sOz2VwZCDuIwvtpLhgA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nZb6VK-1GIeeNquBhLAM&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=James%20Dunbar%201399&f=false
*http://www.linleyfh.com/oursecondsite-p/
=== Acknowledgments ===
*Records of the Heath Family", by George Heath 1907
*Thank you to [[Parker-10195 | Darrell Parker]] for [http://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:NetworkFeed&who=Dunbar-1163 creating] Dunbar-1163 on 30 Aug 13
* WikiTree profile Dunbar-669 created through the import of Hoffman Family Tree.ged on Sep 11, 2011 by [[Prior-169 | JJ Prior]].
-- MERGED NOTE ------------
According to http://www.dunbardna.org/dnadunbarlineage.htm (whose main sources are quoted as: The Scots Peerage (Moray), Burke's Peerage 1934 (Dunbar of Mochrum), Burke's Peerage 1934 (Dunbar of Northfield), and Burke's Peerage 1934 (Hope-Dunbar)) [James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray James Dunbar] the 4th Earl was the son of Alexander Dunbar, who married Matilda/Maud Fraser, and was therefore the cousin of Thomas the 3rd Earl.
However, according to peerage.com (http://www.thepeerage.com/p10808.htm#i108074 , whose sources are Charles Mosley, Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, 107th edition; and Alison Weir, Britain's Royal Family: A Complete Genealogy) James the 4th Earl and Thomas the 3rd Earl were brothers, the sons of Thomas the 2nd Earl.
The following websites have similar discussions:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2012-01/... - 4th Earl and 3rd Earl were brothers.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00370670&tre... (Ref: Scots Peerage VI:301 ) - 4th and 3rd Earl were cousins.
http://www.caledoniansocietyofneworleans.com/main_pgs/clans/c_hist/... - 4th and 3rd Earl were brothers (this also includes a section which, confusingly, uses different ordinals for the Earls where Thomas the 3rd is referred to as the 7th Earl, and James the 4th Earl is referred to as the 8th Earl !).
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=john%... (Ref: Complete Peerage IX:176-7) says that the 4th Earl was "brother and heir", but (Ref: The Scots Peerage VI:304-306) also states that "James, fourth Earl of Moray, who is always stated to be the son of Alexander Dunbar and Matilda Fraser".
How do we resolve this data conflict? Posted by [http://www.geni.com/people/Sheila-Anne-Tolbutt/6000000004534449215 Shelia Tolbutt] in [http://www.geni.com/discussions/121025?msg=858582 this discussion]. Logged on [http://www.geni.com/projects/Medieval-Scotland-Scratchpad-for-research-progress-work-in-progress/14119 Medieval Scotland Scratchpad project] for further perusal. [Sharon March 2013]
'''Conclusion: James the 4th Earl and Thomas the 3rd Earl were brothers (NOT cousins).'''
Please refer [http://www.geni.com/discussions/121025?msg=858582 here] for an excellent opinion on the relative merits of the various discussions above. All of them ultimately cite either Complete Peerage or Scots Peerage, both of which are 'competent compilations, but both are known to have many problems'. Alex Maxwell Findlater in [https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/james$20dunbar$204th$20moray/soc.genealogy.medieval/I-BqrlTIffg/oWxvyU8-aeoJ SGM] discusses the evidence and offers an explanation for the confusion, ie the occurrence of similar names in an earlier generation.
_________
4TH EARL OF MORAY; MURDERED
-- MERGED NOTE ------------
[[Category:Earls of Moray]]
}
=== Biography ===
}
}
:Got a charter for the lands of Frendraught, etc in 1422.[[#BalfourPaul|Balfour Paul]]: [https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun06paul/page/304 Vol 6, Page 305]
:Like his brother one of the hostages for the ransom of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_I_of_Scotland James I] in 1424. Released in 1427.[[#BalfourPaul|Balfour Paul]]: [https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun06paul/page/304 Vol 6, Page 305]
:Became Earl of Moray in 1427 on the death of his brother.
:Died 10th August 1430.[[#RGSS|Register of the Great Seal of Scotland]]: [https://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi02scot#page/38/mode/2up 1424-1513 Entry 179]
== Research Notes ==
:"... et in manibus regis nunc existunt recognite per vicecomitem per causam mortis Jac. comitis Moravie, qui obiit circa festum Beati Laurentii ult."[[#RGSS|Register of the Great Seal of Scotland]]: [https://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi02scot#page/38/mode/2up 1424-1513 Entry 179]::which I translate as something like "... and are now in the hands of the King's sheriff on account of the death of James, Earl of Moray, who died some time about the feast of St. Lawrence [10th August] last month". The document was dated 20th September 1430.
Children of James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray and Janet Seton
*Lady Elizabeth Dunbar d. b 17 Feb 1485/86
*Lady Janet Dunbar d. fr 18 Mar 1493/94 - 1505/6
Child of James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray and Isobel of Innes
*Sir Alexander Dunbar of Westfield d. 10 Mar 1497/98
== Sources ==
* http://thepeerage.com/p2581.htm#i25806
Events
| Birth | 1399 | Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland | |||
| Birth | Abt 1399 | ||||
| Birth | Abt 1400 | ||||
| Death | 10 Aug 1429 | Frendraught, Aberdeen, Scotland | |||
| Death | 10 Aug 1429 | ||||
| Death | 10 Aug 1430 | ||||
| Marriage | Janet Seton | ||||
| Marriage | Isabel Innes | ||||
| Alt name | 4th Earl of Moray | ||||
| Alt name | James Dunbar | ||||
| Alt name | James "of Frendraught, 4th Earl of Moray" Dunbar | ||||
| Reference No | 2789124 | ||||
| Reference No | 2826010 | ||||
| Reference No | 60 |
Families
| Spouse | Isabel Innes (1390 - 1421) |
| Child | Alexander Dunbar (1422 - 1497) |
| Spouse | Janet Seton (1414 - ) |
| Child | Elizabeth "Countess of Moray" Dunbar (1425 - 1486) |
| Child | Janet Dunbar (1416 - 1506) |
| Father | Thomas "2nd Earl Of Moray" Dunbar (1371 - 1415) |
| Mother | Margaret "Countess Of Moray" Ogilvy (1372 - 1422) |
| Sibling | Lady Janet Dunbar (1422 - ) |
| Sibling | Janet Dunbar (1422 - 1491) |
| Father | Thomas "2nd Earl Of Moray" Dunbar (1371 - 1415) |
| Mother | Margaret Unknown (1380 - 1422) |
| Sibling | Thomas "3rd Earl of Moray" Dunbar (1393 - 1427) |
| Sibling | Lady Janet Dunbar (1422 - ) |