Individual Details
Ellen "the Elder; Ellen of Wales" ferch Llewelyn
(Abt 1208 - Bef 16 Feb 1253)
}[[Category: Cymru 742-1535]]
'''}'''
==Biography: Elen the Elder, b. 1208==
Elen was born about 1208. She was the daughter of [[ap Iorwerth-26|Llywelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth]] and [[Plantagenet-1624|Joan, natural daughter of King John of England]]. She is sometimes called Elen, or Helen, the Elder because another Helen is attributed to llywelyn, born a couple of decades later and referred to as Helen the Younger. Elen the Elder, also called Elen of Wales, died in 1253.
===Name===
:Elen ferch Llywelyn Elen ferch Llywelyn (the Elder). Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elen_ferch_Llywelyn_(the_Elder). Accessed Feb 26, 2016
:Countess of Huntingdon and Chester
:House House of Aberffraw (by birth)
:House of Dunkeld (by marriage)
===Arms===
The arms of the Aberffraw House of Gwynedd were traditionally first used by Elen's grandfather, Iorwerth Drwyndwn.
===1208 Birth and Parentage===
Helen, born after 1208 to Llywelyn ap Iorwerth and his wife Joan, died before 24 October 1253. [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Llywellyndied1240B Cawley, Llywelyn ap Iorwerth], The Foundation for Medieval Genealogy
Her parents were Llewlyn the Great who married as his second wife Joan, Lady Snowden (d. ante 24 Oct 1253)[http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237]
:Father Llywelyn the Great
:Mother Joan, Lady of Wales
===1222 Marriage to John of Scotland===
m.1 '''John of Scotland''', 9th Earl of Huntingdon and 7th Earl of Chester (c. 1207 – 6 June 1237)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Scotland,_Earl_of_Huntingdon]The Annales Cestrienses; d. 1237 (The Annals of Dunstable)
m firstly ([1222]) JOHN "the Scot" Earl of Huntingdon, son of JOHN of Scotland Earl of Huntingdon & his wife Matilda of Chester ([1207]-Darnal [5/7] Jun 1237, bur Chester St Werburg). He was created Earl of Chester 21 Nov 1232.
Elen married John of Scotland, 9th Earl of Huntingdon, in about 1222. He died aged thirty in 1237,
John "the Scot" was born about 1207. Cawley, C. (2006). Medieval Lands v.3. [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237 fmg.ac].
The Annales Londonienses name "Johannem" as the son of "comiti David" & his wife[506].
The Annales Cestrienses record in 1222 that “Johannes filius comitis David” married “filiam Lewelini” in accordance with the agreement between him and “comitem Cestrie”[288].
John of Fordun’s Scotichronicon (Continuator) names "Robertum…et Henricum necnon Johannem Scotum ab Anglis vocitatum" as the three sons of "David, rex quondam Willelmus frater" and his wife "Matildem filiam Hugonis…comitis quondam de Cestria", adding that John succeeded his father and also succeeded "Ranulpho…ad comitatum Cestriæ"[507].
John of Scotland (or John de Scotia), 9th Earl of Huntingdon and 7th Earl of Chester (c. 1207 – 6 June 1237), sometimes known as "the Scot", was an Anglo-Scottish magnate, the son of David of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon by his wife Matilda of Chester, daughter of Hugh de Kevelioc. John of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon, Wikipedia. [[Wikipedia: John of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Scotland,_Earl_of_Huntingdon]
John married Elen ferch Llywelyn, daughter of Llywelyn the Great, in about 1222.
m. c. 1222 Elen ferch Llywelyn "the Elder"[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elen_ferch_Llywelyn_(the_Elder)]
m ([1222]) as her first wife, HELEN of Wales, daughter of LLYWELYN ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of Wales & his second wife Joan [illegitimate daughter of John King of England] (-1253 before 24 Oct).
The Annales Cestrienses record in 1222 that “Johannes filius comitis David” married “filiam Lewelini” in accordance with the agreement between him and “comitem Cestrie”[514].
===1237 Death of Husband John===
Matthew of Paris records that it was suspected that his wife "filia Leolini" poisoned John “the Scot”[290].
He died in Darnhall, Cheshire [5/7] Jun 1237 and was buried in Chester at the Abbey of St Werburg[505]).
The Annales Cestrienses record the death “apud Darnal VII Id Jun” 1237 of “Johannes de Scocia comes Cestrie et Huntendon” and his burial “apud Cestriam”[510].
The Annales Cambriæ record the death in 1237 of "Johannes comes Cestriæ gener suus [dominæ Johannæ filiæ regis Angliæ et uxor Lewilini principis Walliæ]"[512]. The Annals of Tewkesbury record the death “V Id Jan” in 1237 of “Johannes de Scotia comes Cestriæ”[513].
===1237 Marriage to Robert de Quincy===
Sir Robert de Quincy. Following the death of John of Scotland, she was forced by King Henry III to marry Sir Robert de Quincy.
'Helen of Wales...widow of John "the Scot" Earl of Huntingdon and Chester, daughter of Llywellyn ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of Wales & his second wife Joan [illegitimate daughter of John King of England] (-1253 before 24 Oct)" married Robert de Quincy "(1237 before 5 Dec) as her second husband.'[http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL2.htm#RobertQuincyMHelenWales Robert de Quincy], [[#FMG]]
m secondly (1237 before 5 Dec) ROBERT de Quincy, son of SAHER Earl of Winchester & his wife Margaret of Leicester (-Aug 1257).
A writ after the death of "Eleanor, sometime the wife of John Earl of Chester", dated "the eve of St Martin 38 Hen III", records the "partition of her lands between Si J. de Bayllol, Robert de Brus, and Henry de Hasting, the heirs of the said earl"[516].
m.2 ante 05 Dec 1237 '''Sir Robert de Quincy'''[http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237]
The Annals of Dunstable record that “Johannes comes Cestriæ” died in 1237 and “eius uxor…filia Lewelini” married “Roberto [de Quinci]” against her father's wishes[289]. The primary source which confirms her name has not yet been identified.
===1253 Death===
Died 1253 (aged 46–47)
d. ante c.1254 (before eve of St Martin 38 Hen) III [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237]
HELEN (-1253 before 24 Oct). [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Llywellyndied1240B Llywelyn ap Iorwerth], Cawley, The Foundation for Medieval Genealogy
A writ after the death of "Eleanor, sometime the wife of John Earl of Chester", dated "the eve of St Martin 38 Hen III", records the "partition of her lands between Si J. de Bayllol, Robert de Brus, and Henry de Hasting, the heirs of the said earl"[291].
==Issue==
===Date Estimation===
Notice that Elen had no children in 15 years of marriage to John, but three daughters following her marriage to Robert. Her birth year is unknown but estimated as 1208, which would make her 14 at her first marriage in 1222, not uncommon in Wales, and make her 29 15 years later in 1237 when she married Robert.
Her daughters with Robert would have been born after 1237, perhaps 1238 and 1240, when she was 30 and 32. Her youngest daughter Hawise is thought to be born in 1250, when she was 42.
If Elen were born later than 1208 her first marriage would likely be a paper marriage until she was 14. If for instance she were born 1212, she would be 8 at her marriage in 1222, and 14 six years later in 1228. If her husband John was in fact born in 1207, he would have been 15 in 1222 and 21 six years later in 1228.
Placing Elen's birth in 1212 would then make her 4 years younger when Hawise was born, age 38 rather than 42.
===Issue by first husband John===
Her first husband John died childless on 6 June 1237, aged 30.
===Issue by second husband Robert===
She and Robert had three daughters, born after their marriage in 1237:
#Anne, a nun#Joan de Quincy (-25 Nov 1284), married Humphrey de Bohun, son of Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex, & his first wife Maud de Lusignan#Hawise ([1250]-before 27 Mar 1285), married (before 5 Feb 1268) Baldwin Wake, son of Hugh Wake & his wife Joan de Stuteville Their daughter, Hawise, married Baldwin Wake, Lord Wake of Liddell.
===Descendants===
Hawise and Baldwin’s granddaughter, Margaret Wake, was the mother of Joan of Kent. Joan of Kent was the wife of Edward, the Black Prince and the mother of Richard II of England, who was deposed and died without heirs.
The blood of Llywelyn the Great eventually came into the English royal family through Joan of Kent's earlier marriage to Thomas Holland, 1st Earl of Kent. By their eldest son, Thomas Holland, 2nd Earl of Kent, two of his six daughters were ancestresses;
Margaret Holland who was the mother of John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset; John Beaufort was the grandfather of Henry VII.
Alianore Holland was the grandmother of Richard Plantagenet, 3rd Duke of York. Richard was the father of Edward IV and Richard III and a grandfather of Elizabeth of York, queen to Henry VII.
By Thomas, 2nd Earl of Kent's other daughter, Eleanor Holland, Countess of Salisbury, Elen ferch Llywelyn was an ancestress of Queen consorts Anne Neville, consort of Richard III and daughter of Warwick, the Kingmaker, as well as Catherine Parr, the last wife of Henry VIII.[1][2]
==Sources==
* '''"Royal Ancestry" Douglas Richardson 2013 Vol. V. p. 302'''Ellen Of Wales, married (1st) about 22 August 1222 John Of Scotland, Knt. They had no issue. She married (2nd) before 5 Dec. 1237 Robert de Quincy, Knt, younger son of Saher de Quincy, Knt., 1st Earl of Winchester, by Margaret (or Margery), daughter and co-heiress of Robert de Beaumont, Knt., 3rd Earl of Leicester. He was born before 1200. They had three daughters, Joan, Hawise, and Anne (nun). His wife, Ellen, died shortly before 24 October 1253. Sir Robert de Quincy died at a tournament at Blie in August 1257.
* Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG), Cawley, C. (2006). Medieval Lands v.3. [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237 John Scot], [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL2.htm#RobertQuincyMHelenWales Robert de Quincy]
* [[Wikipedia: Elen ferch Llywelyn (the Elder)]]* Chauncy, Henry. ''[[Space:The Historical Antiquities of Hertfordshire|The Historical Antiquities of Hertfordshire]]'' (J.M. Mullinger, London, 1826) [https://books.google.com/books?id=AhUHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA398 Vol. 1, Page 398]
}
'''}'''
==Biography: Elen the Elder, b. 1208==
Elen was born about 1208. She was the daughter of [[ap Iorwerth-26|Llywelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth]] and [[Plantagenet-1624|Joan, natural daughter of King John of England]]. She is sometimes called Elen, or Helen, the Elder because another Helen is attributed to llywelyn, born a couple of decades later and referred to as Helen the Younger. Elen the Elder, also called Elen of Wales, died in 1253.
===Name===
:Elen ferch Llywelyn Elen ferch Llywelyn (the Elder). Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elen_ferch_Llywelyn_(the_Elder). Accessed Feb 26, 2016
:Countess of Huntingdon and Chester
:House House of Aberffraw (by birth)
:House of Dunkeld (by marriage)
===Arms===
The arms of the Aberffraw House of Gwynedd were traditionally first used by Elen's grandfather, Iorwerth Drwyndwn.
===1208 Birth and Parentage===
Helen, born after 1208 to Llywelyn ap Iorwerth and his wife Joan, died before 24 October 1253. [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Llywellyndied1240B Cawley, Llywelyn ap Iorwerth], The Foundation for Medieval Genealogy
Her parents were Llewlyn the Great who married as his second wife Joan, Lady Snowden (d. ante 24 Oct 1253)[http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237]
:Father Llywelyn the Great
:Mother Joan, Lady of Wales
===1222 Marriage to John of Scotland===
m.1 '''John of Scotland''', 9th Earl of Huntingdon and 7th Earl of Chester (c. 1207 – 6 June 1237)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Scotland,_Earl_of_Huntingdon]The Annales Cestrienses; d. 1237 (The Annals of Dunstable)
m firstly ([1222]) JOHN "the Scot" Earl of Huntingdon, son of JOHN of Scotland Earl of Huntingdon & his wife Matilda of Chester ([1207]-Darnal [5/7] Jun 1237, bur Chester St Werburg). He was created Earl of Chester 21 Nov 1232.
Elen married John of Scotland, 9th Earl of Huntingdon, in about 1222. He died aged thirty in 1237,
John "the Scot" was born about 1207. Cawley, C. (2006). Medieval Lands v.3. [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237 fmg.ac].
The Annales Londonienses name "Johannem" as the son of "comiti David" & his wife[506].
The Annales Cestrienses record in 1222 that “Johannes filius comitis David” married “filiam Lewelini” in accordance with the agreement between him and “comitem Cestrie”[288].
John of Fordun’s Scotichronicon (Continuator) names "Robertum…et Henricum necnon Johannem Scotum ab Anglis vocitatum" as the three sons of "David, rex quondam Willelmus frater" and his wife "Matildem filiam Hugonis…comitis quondam de Cestria", adding that John succeeded his father and also succeeded "Ranulpho…ad comitatum Cestriæ"[507].
John of Scotland (or John de Scotia), 9th Earl of Huntingdon and 7th Earl of Chester (c. 1207 – 6 June 1237), sometimes known as "the Scot", was an Anglo-Scottish magnate, the son of David of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon by his wife Matilda of Chester, daughter of Hugh de Kevelioc. John of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon, Wikipedia. [[Wikipedia: John of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Scotland,_Earl_of_Huntingdon]
John married Elen ferch Llywelyn, daughter of Llywelyn the Great, in about 1222.
m. c. 1222 Elen ferch Llywelyn "the Elder"[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elen_ferch_Llywelyn_(the_Elder)]
m ([1222]) as her first wife, HELEN of Wales, daughter of LLYWELYN ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of Wales & his second wife Joan [illegitimate daughter of John King of England] (-1253 before 24 Oct).
The Annales Cestrienses record in 1222 that “Johannes filius comitis David” married “filiam Lewelini” in accordance with the agreement between him and “comitem Cestrie”[514].
===1237 Death of Husband John===
Matthew of Paris records that it was suspected that his wife "filia Leolini" poisoned John “the Scot”[290].
He died in Darnhall, Cheshire [5/7] Jun 1237 and was buried in Chester at the Abbey of St Werburg[505]).
The Annales Cestrienses record the death “apud Darnal VII Id Jun” 1237 of “Johannes de Scocia comes Cestrie et Huntendon” and his burial “apud Cestriam”[510].
The Annales Cambriæ record the death in 1237 of "Johannes comes Cestriæ gener suus [dominæ Johannæ filiæ regis Angliæ et uxor Lewilini principis Walliæ]"[512]. The Annals of Tewkesbury record the death “V Id Jan” in 1237 of “Johannes de Scotia comes Cestriæ”[513].
===1237 Marriage to Robert de Quincy===
Sir Robert de Quincy. Following the death of John of Scotland, she was forced by King Henry III to marry Sir Robert de Quincy.
'Helen of Wales...widow of John "the Scot" Earl of Huntingdon and Chester, daughter of Llywellyn ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of Wales & his second wife Joan [illegitimate daughter of John King of England] (-1253 before 24 Oct)" married Robert de Quincy "(1237 before 5 Dec) as her second husband.'[http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL2.htm#RobertQuincyMHelenWales Robert de Quincy], [[#FMG]]
m secondly (1237 before 5 Dec) ROBERT de Quincy, son of SAHER Earl of Winchester & his wife Margaret of Leicester (-Aug 1257).
A writ after the death of "Eleanor, sometime the wife of John Earl of Chester", dated "the eve of St Martin 38 Hen III", records the "partition of her lands between Si J. de Bayllol, Robert de Brus, and Henry de Hasting, the heirs of the said earl"[516].
m.2 ante 05 Dec 1237 '''Sir Robert de Quincy'''[http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237]
The Annals of Dunstable record that “Johannes comes Cestriæ” died in 1237 and “eius uxor…filia Lewelini” married “Roberto [de Quinci]” against her father's wishes[289]. The primary source which confirms her name has not yet been identified.
===1253 Death===
Died 1253 (aged 46–47)
d. ante c.1254 (before eve of St Martin 38 Hen) III [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237]
HELEN (-1253 before 24 Oct). [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Llywellyndied1240B Llywelyn ap Iorwerth], Cawley, The Foundation for Medieval Genealogy
A writ after the death of "Eleanor, sometime the wife of John Earl of Chester", dated "the eve of St Martin 38 Hen III", records the "partition of her lands between Si J. de Bayllol, Robert de Brus, and Henry de Hasting, the heirs of the said earl"[291].
==Issue==
===Date Estimation===
Notice that Elen had no children in 15 years of marriage to John, but three daughters following her marriage to Robert. Her birth year is unknown but estimated as 1208, which would make her 14 at her first marriage in 1222, not uncommon in Wales, and make her 29 15 years later in 1237 when she married Robert.
Her daughters with Robert would have been born after 1237, perhaps 1238 and 1240, when she was 30 and 32. Her youngest daughter Hawise is thought to be born in 1250, when she was 42.
If Elen were born later than 1208 her first marriage would likely be a paper marriage until she was 14. If for instance she were born 1212, she would be 8 at her marriage in 1222, and 14 six years later in 1228. If her husband John was in fact born in 1207, he would have been 15 in 1222 and 21 six years later in 1228.
Placing Elen's birth in 1212 would then make her 4 years younger when Hawise was born, age 38 rather than 42.
===Issue by first husband John===
Her first husband John died childless on 6 June 1237, aged 30.
===Issue by second husband Robert===
She and Robert had three daughters, born after their marriage in 1237:
#Anne, a nun#Joan de Quincy (-25 Nov 1284), married Humphrey de Bohun, son of Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex, & his first wife Maud de Lusignan#Hawise ([1250]-before 27 Mar 1285), married (before 5 Feb 1268) Baldwin Wake, son of Hugh Wake & his wife Joan de Stuteville Their daughter, Hawise, married Baldwin Wake, Lord Wake of Liddell.
===Descendants===
Hawise and Baldwin’s granddaughter, Margaret Wake, was the mother of Joan of Kent. Joan of Kent was the wife of Edward, the Black Prince and the mother of Richard II of England, who was deposed and died without heirs.
The blood of Llywelyn the Great eventually came into the English royal family through Joan of Kent's earlier marriage to Thomas Holland, 1st Earl of Kent. By their eldest son, Thomas Holland, 2nd Earl of Kent, two of his six daughters were ancestresses;
Margaret Holland who was the mother of John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset; John Beaufort was the grandfather of Henry VII.
Alianore Holland was the grandmother of Richard Plantagenet, 3rd Duke of York. Richard was the father of Edward IV and Richard III and a grandfather of Elizabeth of York, queen to Henry VII.
By Thomas, 2nd Earl of Kent's other daughter, Eleanor Holland, Countess of Salisbury, Elen ferch Llywelyn was an ancestress of Queen consorts Anne Neville, consort of Richard III and daughter of Warwick, the Kingmaker, as well as Catherine Parr, the last wife of Henry VIII.[1][2]
==Sources==
* '''"Royal Ancestry" Douglas Richardson 2013 Vol. V. p. 302'''Ellen Of Wales, married (1st) about 22 August 1222 John Of Scotland, Knt. They had no issue. She married (2nd) before 5 Dec. 1237 Robert de Quincy, Knt, younger son of Saher de Quincy, Knt., 1st Earl of Winchester, by Margaret (or Margery), daughter and co-heiress of Robert de Beaumont, Knt., 3rd Earl of Leicester. He was born before 1200. They had three daughters, Joan, Hawise, and Anne (nun). His wife, Ellen, died shortly before 24 October 1253. Sir Robert de Quincy died at a tournament at Blie in August 1257.
* Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG), Cawley, C. (2006). Medieval Lands v.3. [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237 John Scot], [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL2.htm#RobertQuincyMHelenWales Robert de Quincy]
* [[Wikipedia: Elen ferch Llywelyn (the Elder)]]* Chauncy, Henry. ''[[Space:The Historical Antiquities of Hertfordshire|The Historical Antiquities of Hertfordshire]]'' (J.M. Mullinger, London, 1826) [https://books.google.com/books?id=AhUHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA398 Vol. 1, Page 398]
}
Events
| Birth | Abt 1208 | Gwynedd, Wales | |||
| Marriage | 1222 | John "9th Earl of Huntingdon and 7th Earl of Chester" Huntingdon | |||
| Marriage | 6 Jun 1237 | Robert Quincy | |||
| Death | Bef 16 Feb 1253 | Cardiganshire, Wales | |||
| Reference No | 8096122 | ||||
| Reference No | 8449490 | ||||
| Reference No | 60 |
Families
| Spouse | John "9th Earl of Huntingdon and 7th Earl of Chester" Huntingdon (1207 - 1237) |
| Spouse | Robert Quincy (1200 - 1257) |
| Father | Llywelyn "Llywelyn Fawr, Llywelyn the Great" ap Iorwerth (1173 - 1240) |
| Mother | Joan "Lady of Wales, Lady of Snowdon" FitzJohn (1189 - 1237) |
| Sibling | Gwladus "Ddu, Princess of North Wales" ferch Llywelyn (1205 - 1251) |
| Sibling | Angharad Llewellyn (1212 - 1260) |
| Sibling | Dafydd "David, Mawr" ap Llywelyn (1212 - 1246) |
| Sibling | Agatha Verch Llywelyn (1214 - 1217) |
| Sibling | Susanna ferch Llywelyn (1216 - ) |
| Sibling | Tegwared Ap Llewelyn (1235 - 1285) |